Men or Women

[michiana mark]

Originally Posted by crewdawg52

And here's something else to think about (true story).

When taking the judging course at Silver Lake in '07 (given by Mike Lake), there was an individual who stated halfway through the course,

"I dont like any pork. Do I have to taste the ribs and pulled pork to be a judge"?

Now the situation. What happens if you get someone like this who is judging and doesnt like certain meats, but "stomachs them down" just to judge? Do you think the scores given by this judge would reflect his/her dislike for certain meats?

I can attest to this as that I was in the same class. Kinda made you stop and think about who is judging, and what they like, and don't like.

[michiana mark]

Back to the original thread. The Mayor, and yes, she has sat next to Bubba, likes spicy food. She will comment on the too sweet, but not enough heat. She is the exception to the rule, but then again she is from A-HI-A (Ohio). I always cook ribs one way for her and then if I want to try something different, I cook another rack. I tried to turn in ribs the way she liked them, but they didn't score well in the taste category.

[michiana mark]

Originally Posted by Bill Gailey

I usually look at it, decide if the pieces are uniform, is the color what it should be for that meat, etc and write down my score.

Bill, first off, Thank you for spending your spare time and money to judge KCBS BBQ events, all the cooks really do appreciate judges like you.

I read your comment the other day, and it kinda stuck with me being a little strange. I just finished reading my judges manual again, and I was looking for an explanation of your judging point of view. No where in there can I find the idea of "uniform pieces". I see it as being stated 6 pieces. Is this a personal preference, or did I miss something?

"is the color what it should be for that meat" In the manual the color red is discussed as to undercooked and smoked chicken. Does every meat have a prescribed color that you are looking for, and what are they?

Bill, I am not knocking you, but rather trying to understand your point of view. I personally have judged at least 5 comps, not as many as yourself, and am always trying to improve my perspective of the process..

Awaiting your wisdom.

[Rich Parker]

Originally Posted by michiana mark

"is the color what it should be for that meat" In the manual the color red is discussed as to undercooked and smoked chicken. Does every meat have a prescribed color that you are looking for, and what are they?

Reminds of a thread i was reading on the Brethren where a cook posted a pic of his chicken and asked if it was too dark. The comments went from to dark to perfect...lol This subjectivity between judges will always be present and is the reason we get that one 6. That's just the way it is!

Mark (Crapshoot) and I have a lot of discussion on the number of 9s given on presentation in the Michigan area vs down South, where down South you are given at least double the amount of 9s in appearance vs up here. Is that because Southerners think anything looks good and the folks up here are more picky? Who knows... as long as all cooks are being judged the same it all works out in the end.

[Bill Gailey]

Originally Posted by michiana mark

Bill, first off, Thank you for spending your spare time and money to judge KCBS BBQ events, all the cooks really do appreciate judges like you.

I read your comment the other day, and it kinda stuck with me being a little strange. I just finished reading my judges manual again, and I was looking for an explanation of your judging point of view. No where in there can I find the idea of "uniform pieces". I see it as being stated 6 pieces. Is this a personal preference, or did I miss something?

"is the color what it should be for that meat" In the manual the color red is discussed as to undercooked and smoked chicken. Does every meat have a prescribed color that you are looking for, and what are they?

Bill, I am not knocking you, but rather trying to understand your point of view. I personally have judged at least 5 comps, not as many as yourself, and am always trying to improve my perspective of the process..

Awaiting your wisdom.

When I said "uniform in size" I would suggest that if we are talking about ribs the ribs should look similar size as though they came from the same slab. I know there is nothing in the manual that says anything specific like that but Mike Lake "suggested" that we consider things like that so I do. In chicken I would "suggest" that the thighs, if you are using thighs, be of "similar size" simply because they are more aesthetically pleasing to the eye than 6 different sized pieces. Subliminally (nowhere in the judges book either) a box that has entries of "similar size" lets me know that the cook cares about how his box looks and I personally think that shows that he also probably cares about the taste, how his spices and sauce work with each other, etc. Nowhere is there a hard and fast rule on much other than the 4 meats and the number of pieces you have to present. Everything else is subjective and therein lies the basis for the discrepancy in scores. As to color, you are right, there is no defined "acceptable color" or preferred color. I understand, and this is just me, that most cooks are attempting to get that really nice looking mahogany color on their ribs. If you give me a dry rib it obviously won't have the same color as a sauced rib. I try to reward cooks for achieving what they have set out to achieve so if it seems like I have any bias toward any color or size preference it is simply based on what my understanding of the goal of the comp teams I talk with is, not on my personal preferences.

If I used my personal preferences I would probably be run out of Michigan since I grew up in the south and thought BBQ was only done with pigs and vinegar.....

I hope this helps you to understand what I was writing. Basically all I was attempting to do with this discussion was to bring up the fact that there are differences in judging and some of them could be as simple as the difference in how men and women see the same box. I am always willing to discuss anything I say or write about bbq so I take no offense to your questioning what I wrote. Hopefully having frank, open and honest discussions will help others that just can't understand why the results are not always the same.

[michiana mark]

Originally Posted by Bill Gailey

When I said "uniform in size" I would suggest that if we are talking about ribs the ribs should look similar size as though they came from the same slab. I know there is nothing in the manual that says anything specific like that but Mike Lake "suggested" that we consider things like that so I do. In chicken I would "suggest" that the thighs, if you are using thighs, be of "similar size" simply because they are more aesthetically pleasing to the eye than 6 different sized pieces. Subliminally (nowhere in the judges book either) a box that has entries of "similar size" lets me know that the cook cares about how his box looks and I personally think that shows that he also probably cares about the taste, how his spices and sauce work with each other, etc. Nowhere is there a hard and fast rule on much other than the 4 meats and the number of pieces you have to present. Everything else is subjective and therein lies the basis for the discrepancy in scores. As to color, you are right, there is no defined "acceptable color" or preferred color. I understand, and this is just me, that most cooks are attempting to get that really nice looking mahogany color on their ribs. If you give me a dry rib it obviously won't have the same color as a sauced rib. I try to reward cooks for achieving what they have set out to achieve so if it seems like I have any bias toward any color or size preference it is simply based on what my understanding of the goal of the comp teams I talk with is, not on my personal preferences.

If I used my personal preferences I would probably be run out of Michigan since I grew up in the south and thought BBQ was only done with pigs and vinegar.....

I hope this helps you to understand what I was writing. Basically all I was attempting to do with this discussion was to bring up the fact that there are differences in judging and some of them could be as simple as the difference in how men and women see the same box. I am always willing to discuss anything I say or write about bbq so I take no offense to your questioning what I wrote. Hopefully having frank, open and honest discussions will help others that just can't understand why the results are not always the same.

Thanks Bill, we appreciate the insight.