State of KCBS Judging

[Rich Parker]

I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish? I understand that KCBS should look at ways of improving the CBJ program, but they have to think about the effects on the CBJ population too. If you make it more difficult for them then cooks see a reduction in CBJ percentage.

Appearance and taste are all subjective. I have a pork box that i think looks amazing but judges don't necessarily think so. But should i be upset that a judge gives me a "6 - Average"? I don't think so - not everyone has as good taste as me.

I was talking with Mark (Smokin Aces) and Scott (Que'n Stew'n and Brew'n), and they said the scores down South are considerably higher. Maybe the Northern CBJ's are more difficult to please.

[Spruce-Ridge-Smokers]

Originally Posted by Ron_L

Also, the Judge My Box section of bbqcritic.com has some good examples of varying appearance scores. There is one judge there that said that he would mark down because the bones of the ribs were pointing the "wrong way" (meaning the pulled-back ends were pointing towards the front of the box. He prefers them to be pointing to the back of the box).

What a bunch of BS. Sounds like someone that has never cooked a comp in his/her life. You cannot always get an even pull-back on ribs; period. The appearance score on a box is supposed to indicate whether or not the meat is presented in an organized and "tantalizing" manner; personal bias about which way a bone is facing is a sure way to eventually destroy the "sport" because teams will eventually conclude that a bunch of jackasses (moderate me Rich) are in charge.

Jeeze, I wish I wasn't so softspoken.

Brian

[Rich Parker]

I can understand the frustration of idiots that think the bone should point in one direction but what can KCBS do about this? I don't want to see the KCBS act like our government and the rules of judging turn in to a 15,000+ pages like the US tax code.

I am still a green horn, but i thought that was just part of the game and why they throw out a low score.

[Spruce-Ridge-Smokers]

Originally Posted by Rich Parker

I can understand the frustration of idiots that think the bone should point in one direction but what can KCBS do about this? I don't want to see the KCBS act like our government and the rules of judging turn in to a 15,000+ pages like the US tax code.

I am still a green horn, but i thought that was just part of the game and why they throw out a low score.

Point well taken; what KCBS can do is ensure that there is continuing-ed for CBJs and that issues like which way a bone is facing are properly dealt with. The good news and bad news is that there is now too much money involved in BBQ for a bunch of minimally trained CBJs to make decisions based on a pet-peeve versus true knowledge of what it takes to produce four decent turn-ins. We had a master-judge candidate cook with us this past weekend; it was, I believe a learning experience for all involved. Why not make cooking with a team a requirement for being a CBJ, rather than a Master CBJ? Just a thought.

Brian

[Ron_L]

If it is just one judge, throwing out the low score can sometimes work, but in Clark's case the judge that gave him a 2 wasn't the low score. There was also a judge that was much lower than the rest of the table in taste and that ended up being the low score.

In my example up above our brisket appearance scores were 999955, and the taste and tenderness scores were all 8's and 9's. Those two low appearance scores were enough to drop us down to 4th place at that competition because one of them counted.

I really don't think it is about the rules. i think it is about training more thoroughly, mentoring new judges for their first few competitions, and recertification. The way that CBJs are taught to score is different since about 2008. At one time the class told judges to start with a score of 9 and mark down from there. Newer CBJs are taught that 6 is average and they should mark up accordingly for food that is above average. Without recertification it is possible to have judges scoring by either method at the same table.

Finally, some judges just score low. i sat next to a successful cook at one comp and he didn't score anything above a 5 the entire day. If there was a way to track that those judges could be addressed and either they change their scoring method or they can be encouraged to take up another hobby

[spydermike72]

Great Points Brian!!

Rich one thing that I would like to see (of course I am only getting this 2nd hand) is that the Table Captains and Reps actually make a whacked out judge justify their score before they are turned in. I understand that is not always happening... That would go a long way towards helping the few whacked out judges think about their scores...

[Richtee]

Originally Posted by spydermike72

Great Points Brian!!

Rich one thing that I would like to see (of course I am only getting this 2nd hand) is that the Table Captains and Reps actually make a whacked out judge justify their score before they are turned in. I understand that is not always happening... That would go a long way towards helping the few whacked out judges think about their scores...

That puts an awful lot of responsibility on the TC.

I again submit... trial judge period. Any judge with less than say 10 under his belt...(or hers) is subject to review by both other judges at table and the TC before turn-in.

[spydermike72]

Originally Posted by Richtee

That puts an awful lot of responsibility on the TC.

I again submit... trial judge period. Any judge with less than say 10 under his belt...(or hers) is subject to review by both other judges at table and the TC before turn-in.

Then what is the point of having a Table Captain ? There is a class they have to go through to be a Table Captain...

[Spruce-Ridge-Smokers]

Originally Posted by Ron_L

If it is just one judge, throwing out the low score can sometimes work, but in Clark's case the judge that gave him a 2 wasn't the low score. There was also a judge that was much lower than the rest of the table in taste and that ended up being the low score.

In my example up above our brisket appearance scores were 999955, and the taste and tenderness scores were all 8's and 9's. Those two low appearance scores were enough to drop us down to 4th place at that competition because one of them counted.

I really don't think it is about the rules. i think it is about training more thoroughly, mentoring new judges for their first few competitions, and recertification. The way that CBJs are taught to score is different since about 2008. At one time the class told judges to start with a score of 9 and mark down from there. Newer CBJs are taught that 6 is average and they should mark up accordingly for food that is above average. Without recertification it is possible to have judges scoring by either method at the same table.

Finally, some judges just score low. i sat next to a successful cook at one comp and he didn't score anything above a 5 the entire day. If there was a way to track that those judges could be addressed and either they change their scoring method or they can be encouraged to take up another hobby

Yes; listen to the coffee man ... he has a great perspective.

Brian

[Spruce-Ridge-Smokers]

Originally Posted by spydermike72

Great Points Brian!!

Rich one thing that I would like to see (of course I am only getting this 2nd hand) is that the Table Captains and Reps actually make a whacked out judge justify their score before they are turned in. I understand that is not always happening... That would go a long way towards helping the few whacked out judges think about their scores...

I remember Mike Lake (my CBJ instructor) telling another CBJ candidate who had scored everything a "2" (i.e. spoiled dogfood) that he probably wouldn't be very popular on the "circuit" with an attitude like that. And yes folks, that dude is (to my knowledge) a CBJ today that is deciding whether or not our $300+ investment in a comp is going to see a decent return. Hmmmmmmmm.

Brian